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lprovenThis was posted on CIX in response to someone talking about how he'd always had great difficulty approaching the opposite sex. To my considerable surprise, a load of people mailed me or commented to this saying that it was the best or most helpful thing they'd ever seen.
So go ahead... Tear it to pieces! :¬)
Hmmm.
Well. All I can say is general hints. You're coming over in a very, erm, un-positive light, do you realise that?
What you're saying reminds me of a very Aspergic friend of mine, D, who has great problems meeting girls. I've been trying to give him some guidance for years and I think some of it is rubbing off; he did get laid at the Worldcon last summer, the first time in 5y or something.
Firstly: if you tend to be analytical, geeky, Aspergic, attributes like that, learn to regard this as a puzzle, an exercise like learning a new computer program or whatever discipline interests you. It's a game like any other. Enumerate your weaknesses and problems and issues; specify them in as much detail as possible; work out what you would need to change them, or what others do that you don't, or what others don't do that you do. Do this on paper or on-screen if it helps you to be more structured.
Chatting up women is a game just like Doom or chess; it is just part of small-talk in general, of being a sociable human animal. If you find it stilted or unnatural, well tough shit, learn to play it anyway or resign yourself to being a lonely solo most of your life and don't complain about it.
Learn to do smalltalk. Learn to chat about nothing. It's very tedious at first but it's not actually impossible. Learn to talk about the weather. Learn to meet strangers; learn to talk to people you don't know and learn to befriend them.
There are endless opportunities to do this every day. Talk to people in queues, at bus stops, in the shop, whatever and wherever you can. It's a skill just like juggling or folding a paper aeroplane; anyone can learn to do it, but a lot of Aspergic types simply never bother because they see no point.
Learn how to tell an anecdote; learn how to tell a joke, unless you are so serious that you simply cannot - some people are like that. Watch video of great comedians; watch what they do. Watch it 'til you understand why it's funny. Learn some of their routines or some of their jokes - either long or obscure ones, ones people won't instantly recognise.
You can read books on this, get self-help tapes, whatever works for you. I didn't need to; I found that practice made, if not perfect, good enough.
*Don't* talk about yourself. Always start on neutral ground; the weather is a timeless international favourite and the basis of smalltalk in several countries and languages. The Japanese tend to initiate conversations around it as well as the English, for example, and non-British will expect Brits to talk about it. Pop music, films, TV and [shudder] sport are also perennials.
Once you can talk to anyone, you can, if you need to, start to focus on girls.
The following are rules of thumb formed over long decades of observation; when generalising and trying to work out and understand groups or types of people, I treat them all as aliens, whose language & behaviour I must interpret from 1st principles. This doesn't mean I am a sexist; remember this, as I am going to speak in sweeping generalisations here. Bear in mind, you are asking for a roadmap of an unmappable territory, for a checklist of something inchoate. It's impossible, so all I can do is give general guidelines.
When talking to women, to generalise broadly, I recommend a few basic ground-rules.
[1] Treat every woman you meet socially as if you desired her, as if she were gorgeous. Doesn't matter if she's 18 or 80. This is *not* how you act; this is the internal state of mind to cultivate. Do *not* pre-select; do not treat some women as if you fancy them and others as if you do not.
[2] Hide your true responses. If you find her gorgeous, don't show it. If you find her repulsive, don't show it, either. If you find her neither, don't show that. Be open, friendly, chatty, ask her about herself, don't talk about yourself unless asked.
[3] Read at least a little about body language. Learn to control your own. If your stance is positive and open, it will help you to /be/ positive and open. If your stance is closed and defensive, you will be. Learn to lie with your body and your mind will follow.
[4] Form no expectations; expect nothing. One of the greatest turn-offs is desperation; it is critical that you don't exude it. Women can smell it as dogs can smell fear; if you're desperate, it will show. I find the best way to mask my desire is, bearing in mind rule #1 above, to treat all women as unattainable and utterly out of my league, and to really make myself believe that, deep down. If you have no expectation, if you really convince that you're doing this just for practice and really do not stand a chance, then you don't try so hard. Trying hard is a killer and will seldom if ever succeed. I'd say never but miracles do happen.
Believe that every run is a dry run, that you will never ever chat up anyone and you're just going through the motions to refine the skills, and sometimes, you will be surprised.
Do not form goals. Take each stage as it comes.
Small talk may *or may not* lead to a deeper conversation.
A deeper conversation may or may not lead to just the 2 of you talking.
This may lead to the 2 of you going off alone somewhere.
This may lead to escorting her home, or offering a lift, or walking her to her door, or an offer of accomodation for the night, whatever seems appropriate.
That may lead to a goodnight kiss.
That may lead to a snogging session.
That may lead to removal of clothes or petting or heavy petting or any combination.
That may lead to going to bed, or getting horizontal.
That may lead to sex.
That may lead to a relationship. (My longest-term relationship came from a 1 night stand, whereas I've rarely formed any relationship with someone that I dated for a while, except friendship.)
(Sex is actually a great way to get to know someone. It can lead to intimacy as well as result from it. Don't knock it; if you think this sounds like bullshit, *you are wrong*.)
But none of these things is a necessary consequence; it can happen but most of the time it doesn't, or I'd be getting laid by several women every day. (Which would be great, at least for a little while, but never actually happens.) Do not form expectations; do not think that because she wants to go to dinner with you, she wants to kiss you, any more than because she's let you feel her bum, she wants to have sex with you.
It is all a game, a to-and-fro process of delicate negotiations where neither party actually knows where they want things to go. I suspect that most men look at a girl and almost instantly decide whether they'd like to have sex with her or not; it seems to me that most women only decide if they want to have sex with a man once they have got to know him a bit.
[The 2nd part of this was the most widely-disagreed-with part. Indeed, almost the only one.]
You have to do your bit. You have to learn not only to be polite, friendly, charming, fun and interesting, you have to learn how to read the signs of whether someone wants to go from one stage to another, from a chat to dinner, or from meeting to exchanging phone numbers for a future date - tho' I almost never do this, and I seem to do OK - or, just as key, the other way, from a dinner for 2 back to the group in the pub, perhaps.
The most straightforward way to learn this is to learn to socialise and chat. There are others, but they are, overall, harder and less likely to succeed.
You have been saying things like "I don't see the signs". I am put in mind of a bit of dialogue from tpratchett@cix's /Equal Rites/. It goes,
roughly:
"Can you knit, child?"
"I don't know," said Esk, "I've never tried."
This is funny, because knitting is a skill learned only through study and practice. *Why* it is funny is Esk's naïve confidence in her own abilities; she is so sure of herself, or is at least faking being so, that
she believes that she can perform a skilled task without training.
You seem to me to be doing the reverse. You're protesting that you *don't* have a skill, whereas you have given no indication that you have ever actually done any of the training or study. In which case, it's no wonder that you can't do it. You have to learn first.
Some people can learn by just watching. Some are expert socialisers by their early teens, merely by observing others around them. Geekier types cannot do this. I couldn't do this. This is part of what it means to be a geek, to have some degree of Asperger's Syndrome. There is no point railing about it; you have to get up off your arse and fight it.
I have seen someone learn a dance or learn to snowboard just by watching others do it and maybe from a few hints. I can't do that. I have to try to do it for myself, and keep trying and failing at it, and maintain this for /at least/ some weeks and generally some months or years, but eventually, I can become pretty damned competent at most things I try.
So go ahead... Tear it to pieces! :¬)
Hmmm.
Well. All I can say is general hints. You're coming over in a very, erm, un-positive light, do you realise that?
What you're saying reminds me of a very Aspergic friend of mine, D, who has great problems meeting girls. I've been trying to give him some guidance for years and I think some of it is rubbing off; he did get laid at the Worldcon last summer, the first time in 5y or something.
Firstly: if you tend to be analytical, geeky, Aspergic, attributes like that, learn to regard this as a puzzle, an exercise like learning a new computer program or whatever discipline interests you. It's a game like any other. Enumerate your weaknesses and problems and issues; specify them in as much detail as possible; work out what you would need to change them, or what others do that you don't, or what others don't do that you do. Do this on paper or on-screen if it helps you to be more structured.
Chatting up women is a game just like Doom or chess; it is just part of small-talk in general, of being a sociable human animal. If you find it stilted or unnatural, well tough shit, learn to play it anyway or resign yourself to being a lonely solo most of your life and don't complain about it.
Learn to do smalltalk. Learn to chat about nothing. It's very tedious at first but it's not actually impossible. Learn to talk about the weather. Learn to meet strangers; learn to talk to people you don't know and learn to befriend them.
There are endless opportunities to do this every day. Talk to people in queues, at bus stops, in the shop, whatever and wherever you can. It's a skill just like juggling or folding a paper aeroplane; anyone can learn to do it, but a lot of Aspergic types simply never bother because they see no point.
Learn how to tell an anecdote; learn how to tell a joke, unless you are so serious that you simply cannot - some people are like that. Watch video of great comedians; watch what they do. Watch it 'til you understand why it's funny. Learn some of their routines or some of their jokes - either long or obscure ones, ones people won't instantly recognise.
You can read books on this, get self-help tapes, whatever works for you. I didn't need to; I found that practice made, if not perfect, good enough.
*Don't* talk about yourself. Always start on neutral ground; the weather is a timeless international favourite and the basis of smalltalk in several countries and languages. The Japanese tend to initiate conversations around it as well as the English, for example, and non-British will expect Brits to talk about it. Pop music, films, TV and [shudder] sport are also perennials.
Once you can talk to anyone, you can, if you need to, start to focus on girls.
The following are rules of thumb formed over long decades of observation; when generalising and trying to work out and understand groups or types of people, I treat them all as aliens, whose language & behaviour I must interpret from 1st principles. This doesn't mean I am a sexist; remember this, as I am going to speak in sweeping generalisations here. Bear in mind, you are asking for a roadmap of an unmappable territory, for a checklist of something inchoate. It's impossible, so all I can do is give general guidelines.
When talking to women, to generalise broadly, I recommend a few basic ground-rules.
[1] Treat every woman you meet socially as if you desired her, as if she were gorgeous. Doesn't matter if she's 18 or 80. This is *not* how you act; this is the internal state of mind to cultivate. Do *not* pre-select; do not treat some women as if you fancy them and others as if you do not.
[2] Hide your true responses. If you find her gorgeous, don't show it. If you find her repulsive, don't show it, either. If you find her neither, don't show that. Be open, friendly, chatty, ask her about herself, don't talk about yourself unless asked.
[3] Read at least a little about body language. Learn to control your own. If your stance is positive and open, it will help you to /be/ positive and open. If your stance is closed and defensive, you will be. Learn to lie with your body and your mind will follow.
[4] Form no expectations; expect nothing. One of the greatest turn-offs is desperation; it is critical that you don't exude it. Women can smell it as dogs can smell fear; if you're desperate, it will show. I find the best way to mask my desire is, bearing in mind rule #1 above, to treat all women as unattainable and utterly out of my league, and to really make myself believe that, deep down. If you have no expectation, if you really convince that you're doing this just for practice and really do not stand a chance, then you don't try so hard. Trying hard is a killer and will seldom if ever succeed. I'd say never but miracles do happen.
Believe that every run is a dry run, that you will never ever chat up anyone and you're just going through the motions to refine the skills, and sometimes, you will be surprised.
Do not form goals. Take each stage as it comes.
Small talk may *or may not* lead to a deeper conversation.
A deeper conversation may or may not lead to just the 2 of you talking.
This may lead to the 2 of you going off alone somewhere.
This may lead to escorting her home, or offering a lift, or walking her to her door, or an offer of accomodation for the night, whatever seems appropriate.
That may lead to a goodnight kiss.
That may lead to a snogging session.
That may lead to removal of clothes or petting or heavy petting or any combination.
That may lead to going to bed, or getting horizontal.
That may lead to sex.
That may lead to a relationship. (My longest-term relationship came from a 1 night stand, whereas I've rarely formed any relationship with someone that I dated for a while, except friendship.)
(Sex is actually a great way to get to know someone. It can lead to intimacy as well as result from it. Don't knock it; if you think this sounds like bullshit, *you are wrong*.)
But none of these things is a necessary consequence; it can happen but most of the time it doesn't, or I'd be getting laid by several women every day. (Which would be great, at least for a little while, but never actually happens.) Do not form expectations; do not think that because she wants to go to dinner with you, she wants to kiss you, any more than because she's let you feel her bum, she wants to have sex with you.
It is all a game, a to-and-fro process of delicate negotiations where neither party actually knows where they want things to go. I suspect that most men look at a girl and almost instantly decide whether they'd like to have sex with her or not; it seems to me that most women only decide if they want to have sex with a man once they have got to know him a bit.
[The 2nd part of this was the most widely-disagreed-with part. Indeed, almost the only one.]
You have to do your bit. You have to learn not only to be polite, friendly, charming, fun and interesting, you have to learn how to read the signs of whether someone wants to go from one stage to another, from a chat to dinner, or from meeting to exchanging phone numbers for a future date - tho' I almost never do this, and I seem to do OK - or, just as key, the other way, from a dinner for 2 back to the group in the pub, perhaps.
The most straightforward way to learn this is to learn to socialise and chat. There are others, but they are, overall, harder and less likely to succeed.
You have been saying things like "I don't see the signs". I am put in mind of a bit of dialogue from tpratchett@cix's /Equal Rites/. It goes,
roughly:
"Can you knit, child?"
"I don't know," said Esk, "I've never tried."
This is funny, because knitting is a skill learned only through study and practice. *Why* it is funny is Esk's naïve confidence in her own abilities; she is so sure of herself, or is at least faking being so, that
she believes that she can perform a skilled task without training.
You seem to me to be doing the reverse. You're protesting that you *don't* have a skill, whereas you have given no indication that you have ever actually done any of the training or study. In which case, it's no wonder that you can't do it. You have to learn first.
Some people can learn by just watching. Some are expert socialisers by their early teens, merely by observing others around them. Geekier types cannot do this. I couldn't do this. This is part of what it means to be a geek, to have some degree of Asperger's Syndrome. There is no point railing about it; you have to get up off your arse and fight it.
I have seen someone learn a dance or learn to snowboard just by watching others do it and maybe from a few hints. I can't do that. I have to try to do it for myself, and keep trying and failing at it, and maintain this for /at least/ some weeks and generally some months or years, but eventually, I can become pretty damned competent at most things I try.
